Why McCall should run STU in a 4th gen

[Fair!]

Why McCall should run STU in a 4th gen

1. The SMOD Manta is a nearly impossible goal. It will take 1-2 years and tens of thousands of dollars... and if it is successful it will be banned or pushed to SM2. Still a neat idea, but too much to tackle...

2. We sold a '98 Formula 6-spd for $8500 a year ago. An LS1 4th gen non-T-top car could be had for under that now...

3. STU rules limit spending dramatically: Springs/shocks, torque arm (not 100% necessary), non-metal bushings, cold-air, headers and cat-back (with cats), wheels and 275 tires (140 treadwear).

4. The allowance for adj. length control arms finally fixes the lack of camber problem inherent to the 4th gen. Not even ESP cars can do this legally. FINALLY!

5. Unlimited brakes: although not necessary, it's a good allowance for an open track upgrade. Again, a waste of money on this particular car.

6. With the right mods, an LS1 car in STU trim could easily make 360 rwhp. That's low low 12s.

7. Since you have to use cats, it's gonna be emissions legal. No more $2500 ticket worries, nasty smell, or inspection hassles.

8. No one is running STU in an F-body! It'd be cool to be running in a big, growing class in the first domestic RWD V8...

ideas? holes? of course mccall will post a spreadsheet with $50K in mods he has to do... I say crap on that. Pick up a clean 1998-2000 hardtop Z28 or Formula (or SS or WS6) 6-spd car for under $10K, throw on some springs and shocks, slap on his existing 17x9 WS6 wheels, get some Falkens, plop in his already purchased Sparco seats, get some $600 headers and a cheap homemade cat-back (with light single muffler), and go racin!

[C3]

devil's advocate:

how is a stu prepped FS car going to be quicker than stu prepped BS or AS cars?

[Fair!]

devil's advocate:

how is a stu prepped FS car going to be quicker than stu prepped BS or AS cars?

More boost! I mean... more power? For one thing, a 4th gen can swallow a 275 with ease and nothing else running in STU at this time can. Only car at nats with a 275 was a Neon SRT-4, and they were only on the front.

I dunno. It might get it's ass handed to itself... but in ESP the tire equation and awd and boost might tip the favor to the STis and EVOs. In STU, the awd cars are limited to 245s whereas the 4th gen would have similar weight but a more usable 275. And 350 rwhp from an LS1 is legal... and about all that a boosted-to-hell STi/EVO would make.

Admitedly, the 4th gen will need some brake and torque arm improvements, but those are legal in STU...

arg! my flight is boarding. later!

[John in Houston]

1. usable HP. That's too much for the current crop of 'street' tires on asphault.
2. Size. 4th gen is still too d*** big
3. weight. 4th gen is heavier than the 'other' cars
4. BSP > ESP

[hancheyb]

I think what Terry is saying is that you can fix things on the F body that you can't fix in ESP like camber. Therefore, you can't say BSP > ESP. Plus the M3 is MISSING key BSP stuff....like 285s and a few HP bits.

[John in Houston]

I think was Terry is saying is that you can fix things on the F body that you can't fix in ESP. Therefore, you can't say BSP > ESP. Plus the M3 is MISSING key BSP stuff....like 285s and a few HP bits.

See #1 above. Useable HP on asphault.

[hancheyb]

See #1 above. Useable HP on asphault.

Hell, that's PERFECT for Jason. He can pimp it out.

[Nick]

I think what Terry is saying is that you can fix things on the F body that you can't fix in ESP like camber.

Seems the only thing you can 'fix' is camber. You can throw a set of UCA's on a F-body and get about -2.5* of camber. Without UCA's, you're at about -1.5* max. My car sits at about -1.3* right now. Not a huge heck of a difference to justify the change to STU. Your solid axle is still at -0.0001.

$3000 big brake kits are for open lapping cars. A quality set of pads on a LS1 brake setup will stop the car incredibly well.

ESP still allows the torque arm, aluminum flywheel, springs, headers, yada yada. Oh, and you can stuff 335 V710's under an ESP 4th gen. There's your usable hp A 360rwhp LS1 would chew up 275 Azenis quicker than me eating a plate of wafflez.

What did your Formula weigh, Fair? My Z28 tipped the scales (literally) at 3506 at the El Paso tour. That was with SFC's, no back seat, no rear-muffler section, and factory Z06 wheels (pretty light).

[hancheyb]

Not sure if I want to expose this, but Casey Weiss KILLED us all in a STOCK F body at Nationals. OK, he had Kumhos, but NINE seconds better?!?!?!

OOPs, Casey's North course was shorter than our North course after they redid the course.

Jason wanted to see the "rules" for STU.




"STU will follow the STX rule set, but will
raise the displacement limit for otherwise
STX-legal vehicles to 3.1 liters for forced
induction and to unlimited displacement for
natural aspiration. To accommodate the
greater power of these vehicles, restrictions
on wheel width are lifted and the maximum
tire width will be increased to 275 for front or
rear wheel drive vehicles (but will remain at
245 for AWD vehicles). Other than these
limited exceptions, the STX rule set as
described in 14.11 applies. This class
extends the Street Touring concept to cars
including the Audi S4, BMW M3 (E36),
Chevrolet Camaro, Dodge Neon SRT-4, Ford
Mustang, Mazda RX-8, Mitsubishi Lancer
Evo 8, Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac GTO,
Subaru WRX STi, Volvo S60 R, and Toyota
Supra. Excluded vehicles include the E46
M3 and the E39 M5."

[C3]

I'm sorry, but suggesting that a 3500lb 4th gen with headers, springs, -2.5* camber, and 275 Azenis could autox as well as a 3100lb E36 M3 with -4* camber, springs, and 255 azenis is just silly. As has been said, the 4th gen is too big and has too much HP for 275 (read: STOCK WIDTH) tires. If you start with a car that has a higher stock pax (BS or AS) you're going to be better off once you apply equal mods to it.

The SM CrackOpel(tm) had more promise than this...

[turbotoddie]

Just freakin' commit to something and get out there and commit to driving it instead of throwing parts at it!!!

If it helps, you can be like Paul and smoke lots of cigarettes!!

[McCall]

Hehe, I just love these posts about what I should get. Gotta love ya guys!

I have to agree with Nick, Cody, and John in that the f-body is just too porky to be competitive with BS and AS cars. There's that and the fact that it will be very hard to put that extra power down on street tire 275's. Now a T2R would really help though....hmmm....

Definitely a good thought though. Would be nice to dump the truck/trailer/bird and just get one nice driver. Heck, I could even get a '01/'02 low mileage/nicer car if that's all I have.

How has ESP compared to STU regionally and at pro-solos? This year's Nationals with all the crazy weather makes comparison worthless.

[Fair!]

Dayum people, I'm just throwing ideas out there for McCall to think about. The SMOD Manta thing will be 100% trailer queen, and little more than a "garage queen" for 1-2 years. And un-sellable when complete.

McCall could throw together an STU legal F-Body fast and relatively cheap (relative to STU class it would be possibly the cheapest AND most powerful option) and street drive the thing, drag race it, open track it, and even sell it later.

Fixes: A $500 T2-R (still cheap compared to BMW racing diffs!!! and AWD difffs?! there's 3...) would make lots of problems go away. No need to spend $$ on brakes, "but you could" - and even a simple upgrade like 13" rotors and caliper relocation brackets would help it for track use a LOT. 2-piece rotors for weight and a good way to waste money. Custom torque arm could fix a lot of the axle hop, as could brake tweaks not legal in ESP. Still, I think camber potential within STU rules is key - these cars have never been run with LOTS of camber (I mean all the way to -3.5°, not the wimpy -1.5° they can get in ESP).

Why do you think 3rd gens stayed competitive in ESP and FStock for so long after 4th gens came out with lots more power? They weren't THAT much lighter but sure were down on power... it was camber. I had -1.7° degrees in my FStock '92 B4C and in SP form you could go all the way to -4. Hell, that'd be a CHEAP STU car... a B4C with headers and camber. Just kidding!

Weight: 3500 pounds, Nick?! Sheesh. I've weighed a bunch of 4th gens at the drag strip, I'll look for numbers when I get back home, but I think I remember "Barney" ('95 Z2 was closer to 3300. Seriously, an STi is 3200+ pounds and an E36 M3 DIDN'T WIN NAITONALS. (dohhhh!) Run a Firehawk hood (fiberglass) and other Firehawk bits to save some weight. Stock cast Z06 wheels ain't light. Nick -you have a transver muffler? A single straight thru can save considerable weight and piping length. He's got a set of Sparcos to drop some additional "ell bees" as well.

E36 M3: Even with a light battery and race seats and other weight saving tricks, most E36 M3s push 3000 pounds and a "monster" 220 whp. GRM just did a 6 part project E36 M3 that made 212 whp with headers, cat exhaust, dyno/chip tuning, MAF and other STU legal prep. These are the lightest but least powerful cars in the class. Small and narrow, for sho!

I don't see where a 4th gen is are obscenely outclassed for STU... these are domestics, so everything is radically cheaper, from initial chassis to aftermarket bits. He already has wheels, seats, and experience with these cars. Could run in the same class as lots of locals and friends.

[Nick]

<snip><snip>
Weight: 3500 pounds, Nick?! Stock cast Z06 wheels ain't light. Nick -you have a transver muffler? A single straight thru can save considerable weight and piping length.

Yes, my car is a tubby. I would ASSume the scales they used to be accurate, as it was a National Tour, and some classes are serious about weight (CP for instance). It had about 3/4 tank of gas. I've noticed other folks on the 4th gen boards saying their cars weight about the same. Trans Ams are even porkier (all that snout!).

I used to have a factory style muffler setup. I now use 3" piping, in to a single 16" Dynomax bullet muffler, out to a single 3" tip. Way lighter than the stock setup, and it doesn't kill me daily driving like a cutout/no exhaust would/did.

A quick internut search turned up a ~20lb. wheel weight for '02 Z06 cast wheels. Whether that's true or not, it's still decent for a "race" wheel. It wasn't really a suggestion for the STU-mobile, just showing that it really is the car that's a fatty mcfat

[McCall]

Here's the parts list. I figure I would need about $6500 in parts above and beyond the actual purchase of the car. Hopefully I could find one with a lot of these parts already installed and/or buy them used cheaper but at least this is realistic at what it would cost to build a STU f-body.

’98-’02 LS1 F-body (I’d prefer a silver SS)


17 x 9 WS6 wheels ~20lbs each - $0
275/40-17 Falken 615s - $800 installed
Torsen T2R - $500
Koni shocks single adjustable (4) - $800
Ground Control Coil-Overs - $420
Strano Sway Bars - $400
Front Upper Control Arms - $250
BMR rear control arms - $150
BMR panhard rod - $100
LG Torque Arm - $300
Stainless brakelines - $100
Hawk front brake pads - $150
Longtube headers with cats/y-pipe - $1200
Custom Straight Exhaust - $300
Subframe connectors - $170
Air Lid with K&N - $150
2-point STB - $100
Harnesses (2) - $200
Sparco Seats - $0
Vorshlag seat brackets - $0

EDIT - Now a crazy question....why couldn't I just convert my current 'bird over to STU? Besides the engine and a few suspension changes, my car is already there.