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Finding the candidate for the Ultimate DSP BMW E36 or E46...

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  • Finding the candidate for the Ultimate DSP BMW E36 or E46...

    OK, let's start the bench racing officially...

    Its no secret that I want to build a new autocross car for the 2010 season. After trolling around the paddock for a week at the 2009 Nationals I keep going back to the DSP cars. The class has a ton of diversity and the E36 non-M is still very strong there. Mike's win in SMOD makes me think that the bigger, concrete courses we'll likely see for years to come might put the ball back in the court of lightweight, RWD, non-boosted cars with big tires. STX and SMOD were just two examples where this simple layout and the E36 chassis ruled the roost. I love BMW E36 chassis cars for their lightness, narrowness, durable drivetrains, awesome ABS braking system and stellar handling (with the right mods). They look great and cost next to nothing to buy. I am really missing R compound grip, too.

    What I want to build is a DSP classed autocross car using an E36 couple chassis that can be also used in a limited basis for BMWCCA club racing. The car is to be a 100% DSP build with the only concessions to club racing being a minimalist, weld in, 8-point cage (which is SP legal) and a big brake upgrade (also SP legal). The cage will be delayed for a while... maybe forever if the CCA constraints prove to add too much weight to the car. Being DSP it cannot have a wing so it woouldn't be the ultimate track setup, but I think it still won't quite suck...

    I'm picking the brains of the fastest/smartest racers I know and of course Brian Matteucci was the first one on my speed dial. His DSP 1995 325is is the basis for most of my wish list, with some changes that he mostly suggested. Here's a picture gallery of his old car: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Cars/DSP.../1165599_CLEYD I've also nicked a lot of good ideas from Dave B and his low buck "Goldmember" - a super lightweight 325i racecar, also chronicled on this forum.


    18x10" wheels, 285/30/18 Hoosiers, and flares


    This was a sunroof car that was completely converted to a hardtop. Crazy work!


    2.8L engine swap from 328 is 100% legal (update/backdate), as is the Euro M3 header

    Mattreucci's car is now owned by Paul Leonard and has the 1992 no-airbag dash swapped in, 15x10" wheels (altho 275/15 Hoosiers didn't prove to be the faster tire than the 285/30/18 Hoosiers) and I think he took out the triple disc clutch (which Matteucci said "wasn't a great idea, and hurt driveability".

    What I want is very close to that:
    • 1992-1995 (OBD-I) BMW 325is (2-door no sunroof 5-spd car)
    • 2.8L swap but keep the lighter Getrag from the 325
    • 3.15 ratio LSD diff (the best ratio from all of the 323/325/328 cars. Also could use 3.90 or 2.93)
    • 18x10" wheels (already have a set of D-Force's) + 285 Hoosiers, with flares added only if 100% necessary (this is a TON of work). I'm going to roll the crap out of those fenders first! (remember: Chris Mayfield managed to fit 285s on 10's under STU fenders!)
    • AST 4200 or similar + Vorshlag everything
    • Aftermarket EFI, custom intake manifold (see below) - maybe a 3.0L Euro M3 intake??
    • Full length header + custom lightweight exhaust (with a swappable cat for street use/inspections)
    • A lightweight big brake swap. It might just be an M3 setup with the 2-piece Euro rotors (that stopped at over 1.1g on the STU M3 with street tires)
    • Custom splitter that is ridiculously huge + equally ridiculous rear spoiler
    • Lightweight racing seats, harnesses, etc.
    • Dump all dead weight that can legally be removed - light battery, etc. Target weight of 2700 lbs.

    What am I missing?


    After seeing how well Mike S's car ran in SMOD with this intake, I want something close to that for DSP


    If 18x10s and 285s can fit under STU legal fenders, imagine what can fit after a few hours with a baseball bat...
    Last edited by Fair!; 10-13-2009, 09:28 AM.
    Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
    2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
    EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

  • #2
    Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

    I need help to the search for the ultimate DSP chassis!

    Really would like to find the following:
    • 1992 BMW 325is Coupe, 2 door, NO SUNROOF, 5-spd, Sport package. Running and driving, great white paint, super cheap.


    I'd take the following alternatives in order of preferences:
    • 1993-1995 325is 5-spd NO SUNROOF
    • 1996 328is 5-spd NO SUNROOF
    • 1997-1998 328is 5-spd NO SUNROOF
    • 1996-1998 323is 5-spd NO SUNROOF
    • Cars above with paint or body problems
    • Non running versions of the cars above


    What I won't consider:
    • 4 door sedans (325i)
    • Sunroof equipped cars
    • Automatic equipped cars
    • Rust buckets, dead bodies in the interior, cars with excessive body damage
    • Green or Gold versions of the cars above


    We're checking Craigslists all over Texas and Oklahoma. So far I keep missing the best no sunroof cars, but if you find something send it my way - Thanks!
    Last edited by Fair!; 09-18-2009, 05:11 PM.
    Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
    2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
    EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

      Originally posted by rp1 View Post
      See, I thought a 1992 325i with a 2.8L swap would have been way easier. OBDI swaps are legal in DSP right? We had a hard enough time finding a non-sunroof 328is, let alone a 1996 version.

      Also, if the OBDI is legal, we have a local shop here called The Racer's Market (our sponsor) that has gotten spectacular gains with OBDI 2.8L engines and their ECU tunes. Really a great bunch of electronics guys.
      You are right... the more I thought about it last night the better the OBD-I cars sound to me... this way I can do an aftermarket EFI (megasquirt) to better support the crazy intake manifold I want to run (Euro S50B30). Here's the delimma:

      Buy an OBD I car (1992-1995 325is) and I'll have to do the following major mods:
      • Build a DSP legal 2.8L
      • Swap in the 2.8L, light flywheel (E30 M3), and sprung hub clutch
      • Some 325's came with an optional LSD (Sport Package)
      • for 1993-1995 models swap in the 1992 no-airbag dash
      • EFI swap to anything I want


      Buy an OBD II car (1996-1998 328is) and I'll have to do the following mods:
      • Getrag 5-spd swap (lighter) from the 325
      • Build a DSP legal 2.8L, then install that, a light flywheel (E30 M3), and sprung hub clutch
      • Swap in the 1992 no-airbag dash
      • If its a 1997-up car I'd have to swap in the earlier doors
      • No 328's came with the LSD
      • If I change the EFI to an aftermarket system (which I think would be SO much easier to tune) it can never be smogged/inspected again

      So the easiest base car will be a no sunroof 1992 model 325is Sport. That's what we're looking for the hardest... found 2 so far but both were sunroof cars. I used to own a 1993 325is Sport no-sunroof car so I know they are out there...
      Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
      2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
      EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

        Good news for my vanity: the M3 front and rear bumper covers, side skirts and molding can legally be used on a non-M! I was sweating having to use the non-M front end... yuck.

        Matt found that 150 cars were sold int he USA in 1994 model year called the M-Technique that had all the external M3 bits and even some of the interior. Update/backdate... sweet.
        Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
        2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
        EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

          Sweeet. That stock front end is on the homely side.
          -Sean Martin
          2009 Pontiac G8 GT

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

            I am selling my '97 non-sunroof 328is coupe if you want one

            I don't see airbags in my doors, but they were in the seats?

            http://www.briangt.com/gallery/328is

            I am sure you won't need the Moton shocks.

            When I was looking for one last year, I actually found another non-sunroof car, but it was also a '97, and a burgandy auto car.
            Last edited by BrianGT; 09-18-2009, 08:59 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

              Originally posted by BrianGT View Post
              I am selling my '97 non-sunroof 328is coupe if you want one

              I don't see airbags in my doors, but they were in the seats?

              http://www.briangt.com/gallery/328is

              I am sure you won't need the Moton shocks.

              When I was looking for one last year, I actually found another non-sunroof car, but it was also a '97, and a burgandy auto car.
              Nice car.



              And its pretty close to exactly what I am looking for. Please PM or email me a price, mileage, list of parts (minus the Motons), etc. fair (at) vorshlag (dot) com

              Thanks!
              Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
              2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
              EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

                I'm sure Teucci's old car is still available. I could Ping Paul if you are interested. The 15x10s are gone as well... so, with the exception of the early dash and a 'real' steering wheel, it is as Teucci left it (including those same GC Konis!).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

                  I don't suppose you have to run fog lights in the E36 bumpers in DSP, do ya?

                  Great picture of Brian's car. That's me driving at the 2-3 points event this year in Atlanta. Not sure why the car decided not to grip like that in Lincoln

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

                    Originally posted by John in Houston View Post
                    I'm sure Teucci's old car is still available. I could Ping Paul if you are interested. The 15x10s are gone as well... so, with the exception of the early dash and a 'real' steering wheel, it is as Teucci left it (including those same GC Konis!).
                    Paul wants too much $$$ for the car - more than I want to pay all at once. And... isn't it still green?

                    I want to build it up from a nearly or totally stock E36 candidate myself - that's half the fun. This way it can be built in stages...
                    Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
                    2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
                    EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

                      Oh Terry, why are you still pining after those old beater cars? Everybody knows the age of the E36 has come and gone in DSP, it's 330 time!

                      (I'm joking, I'm sure the E36 is still competitive, it's a bummer Doug's car broke this year and we couldn't see if he'd repeat)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

                        The search for a no sunroof E36 Coupe has been fruitless so far - every single ad we've found that did not mention sunroof, or had pictures where you couldn't quite tell if it had one.... they all had a sunroof. We've checked literally hundreds of 1992-1998 E36 for sale ads.

                        I did find one 1997 328is without Sunroof, silver, the paint and interior looked immaculate, it had only 85,000 miles, was $4850, and located local at a big Ford dealer. It had sold the day before I called... ARG! I might still call them back and ask if they can forward my request to the new owner for $500 over what he paid!

                        Brian's beautiful white STX prepped 328is shown on a previous post is priced out of my range, but worth every penny he's asking. I really need a stock E36 because I already have most of what is needed for the DSP prep like suspension, wheels/tires, seats, etc.

                        Any help for leads is appreciated. Here's basically what I need:
                        • 1992-1998 325is or 328is (coupe), 5-spd, no sunroof

                        I've gotten a lot less picky - the no sunroof cars are HARD to find. Again, if they don't say "sunroof" in the ad it has to be checked. No A/C or radio is fine because that's all coming out anyway. Ratty interior is OK. Bad paint is OK because it will need flares eventually. Still prefer to avoid green or gold, but my standards are going down every week.

                        We are checking Craigslist predominantly (98% of the ads for cars of this vintage are found here), but there's still one or two ads on AutoTrader and Cars.com occasionally that aren't total scams. We've been checking Craigslist Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, Austin, Houston, OKC, Shreveport almost daily. Any other suggestions?

                        I am going to look for another month or two before I start thinking about doing the no sunroof "roof swap" (I've been told repeatedly NOT to do this) The search continues...
                        Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
                        2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
                        EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

                          From all of my research, I don't believe that BMW sold any non sunroof 325s in the US. The sunroof became an option in 1996 with the 328.

                          As mentioned earlier.. the E46 330 MIGHT be an better option to consider IMO. Significant increase in power. Most importantly, the gearing selection is better. I think 285s might also fit without too much hassle.

                          They are heavier, but I think after the SP conversion work the E46 might loose more than the E36.

                          You also have a LOT of update / backdate options on the E46.. more so than the E36 IMO.

                          I have seen a few Non-M3 E46s with no-sunroof. They are out there.

                          Picking up a 323 and swapping the 330 motor might be the way to go price wise.

                          Lets face it, from a marketing standpoint, the oldest E36s came out in 1991. That's coming up on 20 years ago.. They can almost qualify for "collector car" plates at this point.

                          Just my thoughts.

                          EDIT: If you are looking at E36s, you should be looking from 1992 to 1999. They made the Coupe in 1999 while the 4 door switched to the E46.

                          -B.
                          Last edited by Teucci; 09-25-2009, 12:59 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

                            Originally posted by Teucci View Post
                            From all of my research, I don't believe that BMW sold any non sunroof 325s in the US. The sunroof became an option in 1996 with the 328.
                            Bummer... OK, that narrows the search a good bit.

                            Originally posted by Teucci View Post
                            As mentioned earlier.. the E46 330 MIGHT be an better option to consider IMO. Significant increase in power. Most importantly, the gearing selection is better. I think 285s might also fit without too much hassle.

                            They are heavier, but I think after the SP conversion work the E46 might loose more than the E36.

                            You also have a LOT of update / backdate options on the E46.. more so than the E36 IMO.
                            Wait... what?? When did you mention E46 330? Now you've got my head spinning round and round... I mean, yea, I LOVE the E46 Coupe chassis. Its drop dead gorgeous, with even better curves and lines than the beautiful and timeless E36!



                            You are killing me....

                            Originally posted by Teucci View Post
                            I have seen a few Non-M3 E46s with no-sunroof. They are out there.

                            Picking up a 323 and swapping the 330 motor might be the way to go price wise.
                            http://cms.scca.com/documents/Solo_R...nufacturer.pdf



                            WTF? Check that out. The 330 Coupe is on its own line (DSP), and the 328 and 330 sedan is on a different line (also DSP)... but no mention of the 323! Wait just a damn minute... this appendix is a MESS. Who wrote this, retarded people?

                            Originally posted by Teucci View Post
                            Lets face it, from a marketing standpoint, the oldest E36s came out in 1991. That's coming up on 20 years ago.. They can almost qualify for "collector car" plates at this point.
                            Well I cannot argue with you there. I can get shocks and other bits for an E46 just as easily as an E36... the 18x10 wheels I have fit even better (see below), and its got more displacement (3.0 vs 2.8L) and power. I wonder if the 330 motor responds as well to exhaust and intake mods...



                            Oh! Did the aluminum 3.0L block ever come in the E46 chassis?!?!

                            What were the extra weight loss bits you think the E46 will attain in SP trim?? I know things like the battery was huge in the E46, but what else? Seats, steering wheel, exhaust...


                            E46 OEM battery vs. Odyssey PC680

                            You are a BAD influence Mr. Matteucci... I will be having E46 dreams for a week now.
                            Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
                            2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
                            EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Building the Ultimate DSP classed BMW E36?

                              My understanding is that the M54 3.0L is an aluminum block.

                              I don't see the 323 or 325 E46 on that list. WTF?
                              -Sean Martin
                              2009 Pontiac G8 GT

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