Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

    Terry,

    The car's looking great. I'm really interested in the headers when you finish things up.

    I'm sorry to be out of touch. We'd talked online when you were just completing the E36 LS1-- I'd followed that on the website a lot.

    We did complete our 6.0L E46 wagon a little over a year ago. Motor's installed in a 323iT "Sport Touring" wagon-- I've always loved "sleeper" grocery-getters, so this one looks very vanilla, until you hear the exhaust when it fires up. We started with an LQ4 bottom end and installed '243 LS6 heads, Comp .568/.566 112LSA cam and Weiand Lingenfelter LS6 intake. PCM is the stock "Red/Blue" LS1/6 computer, but re-programmed for this cam set-up.

    Issues we ran into:
    1) For 'fit' reasons we concluded that the late-GTO pan, forward sump, was our best bet. I think we are mounted a hair forward from what your pics show. Using the T56, we ended up with the F-Body (rear) shifter location and it pops up in the exact right spot in the BMW. We did select our 323iT for already having a manual 5-speed in it-- -saved grief with clutch, master considerations.
    2) We are running BOTH BMW computer (to keep CAN bus and gauges happy) and GM PCM (to run the engine and present an ODB-II port). ODB-II works great that way and would scan without Readiness or Error codes were we to have emissions testing here.
    3) We used the M3 LSD diff to be on the safe side. I like the ratios a lot for this application-- loafs on the freeway, but still short enough to work with the T56's F-Body gearing
    4) Cam has a nice lope, but will idle at 950. It pulls hard to redline at 6800, where we cut fuel off
    5) Biggest issue we ran into was "cooling"--- We ended up buying the E46-M3 radiator, which is a drop-in. But, still had issues with airflow. Due to hood sealing, airflow is very constrained with the stock fan. We finally wired in a monster electric fan, which will keep heat in check even on a 120 day.

    Net is that we really like the combination-- It was built to your #2 objective-- a daily driver that can be taken to the track.

    Anyway, I stumbled back across your 330Ci thread and wanted to check back in. No threadjack here, but wanted to offer any thoughts on stuff we ran into. Would love to install your E46 headers when you get them wrapped up-- I'm sure we are power-limited (410-ish currently) by exhaust flow right now. We have Magnaflows on it, but did a custom hack on the manifolds. Long tubes would help a lot.

    Best regards,
    Tom
    Last edited by E46_LSLQ; 01-30-2012, 02:12 PM.
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

      Tom

      Thanks for sharing! Very good stuff there. That sounds a lot like how we're going so far, other than the oil pan we used.



      I'm still tempted to try the non-M E46 "medium case" 188mm diff housing, but making one of these into an LSD ($2500-ish with a good diff) will cost more than buying a used 210mm E46 M3 diff ($750 or so). Problem is the E46 M3 diff has a unique subframe halfshafts, and all of the rest. So we're back to buying a pull-out subframe assembly brake to brake ($1500-2000-ish).



      We'll do some looking and see if its worth doing this or... swapping in a Ford 8.8" aluminum IRS housing. That gives us a more affordable, stronger, lighter, differential housing with a near infinite number of gear ratios to choose from ($180/set for Ford Motorsport gear sets) and anything from stock clutch-type differentials to Wavetrac, Eaton, Torson, and more.



      We'll so some looking for M3 assembly pullouts, run the numbers and see which option is the most affordable and has best gearing and differential options. The BMW tax is fairly brutal on some of these items, and in the end it might be better to make a new subframe to mount the 8.8" aluminum IRS center onto, with custom halfshafts to fit the E46.

      Thanks again for your input!
      Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
      2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
      EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

        As a former owner of a number of vehicles with Ford 8.8s, I'm entirely behind that idea. Those things are indestructible. Anything that holds up to me having too much fun with the happy pedal in vehicles as heavy as the Crown Vic and Thunderbird has to be plenty strong for these purposes.

        Also, eliminating the BMW tax and avoiding the M tax on a major drivetrain component would be wonderful. I'm sure everyone who looks in to LSDs for E46s would be interested, V8 swap or not, if it can be done at a price competitive with the M3 rearend conversion.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

          Terry,

          Thanks for reminding me... I'd almost put the pain of buying that M3 Diff-and-hardware behind me. I think they are carved from pure crystal unobtanium beneath a monastery between Munich and Salzburg. It's too bad, in the 3-series over the years BMW has offered up a lot of different ratios for their diffs... but only a handful that seem capable of handling lots and lots of power.

          So, second that thought! A Ford 8.8 would be a wonderful alternative, especially as we're in a different range of gearing with some of these GM powerplants and gearboxes. I really, really like the 0.50 overdrive of the T-56, but to make best use of the powerband it would be nice to have the choice of ratios the 8.8 provides.

          Have you thought about the radiator much? I've never gone back to try the stock one after we'd installed the M3 3-row radiator... but I think our cooling grief was as much about airflow and fan sizing as it was radiator capacity. I think the fan we finally used is well over 30A... another benefit of using a GM stock 145A truck alternator!

          Please keep us posted!

          Tom
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

            Here is a gentleman in Germany that is devoted to hacking the I-BUS (which is the onboard entertainment network)...which is linked in a roundabout way to the CAN-BUS network via the IKE(???).

            http://www.reslers.de/index.html

            If they (the now defunct openbmw.org have been able to dissect...of which Herr Resler was a member) can figure out traffic on this BUS (which has packet structure with no distinct beginning or end...odd) and introduce packets/capture packets in the stream with out incident...and have it work, maybe it is worth contacting him about CAN-BUS interpolation? They may have tried communicating with the rest of the systems in trying to understand the I-BUS.

            If he doesn't have knowledge of the CAN-BUS network for the "engine" side of things, maybe he knows someone that does? Just a thought...found the reading on some of this to be kinda interesting... But I do like to nerd out once in a while.


            Also, does anyone have a link to a good technical write-up that describes DSC, what inputs it looks at, how it handles the info, and what it does with it to try and control the car? Does it apply braking to one/two/all wheels in a skid? Does it blip the throttle in an oversteer situation to bring the rear end back in? Does it cut the throttle back to limit horsepower in a low traction situation or does it cut fuel? Trying to understand this system to see what the possible ramifications might be in running two ECU's in parallel if the problem of running one can not be elegantly solved. Will DSC have to be "greyed-out" since the BMW DME is not able to control the new engine...or does it just have to control the throttle (which I think could be done without too much hassle...but I will need to research that one a little further...)?

            I will now crawl back under my regularly scheduled rock.
            If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

              Originally posted by Fair! View Post
              The BMW tax is fairly brutal on some of these items, and in the end it might be better to make a new subframe to mount the 8.8" aluminum IRS center onto, with custom halfshafts to fit the E46.
              I am 99% buying an E46 already swapped with an F1-Procharged SBC running a built 700R4 and a stock 323ci rear (eek). I am obviously EXTREMELY interested in an upgraded rear and subframe of some sort whether it is a Ford 8.8" or something else heavy duty that can take high 3-digit rwhp launches on a drag radial or a slick.

              What could be the realistic time frame on the development of a full bolt-in solution? Willing to put money down to get the ball rolling as a priority. Feel free to e-mail me separately to keep from cluttering this thread PianoProdigy@gmail.com if you wish.
              Last edited by PianoProdigy; 03-05-2012, 10:56 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

                Originally posted by PianoProdigy View Post
                I am 99% buying an E46 already swapped with an F1-Procharged SBC running a built 700R4 and a stock 323ci rear (eek). I am obviously EXTREMELY interested in an upgraded rear and subframe of some sort whether it is a Ford 8.8" or something else heavy duty that can take high 3-digit rwhp launches on a drag radial or a slick.

                What could be the realistic time frame on the development of a full bolt-in solution? Willing to put money down to get the ball rolling as a priority. Feel free to e-mail me separately to keep from cluttering this thread PianoProdigy@gmail.com if you wish.
                So that 99% went to 100%. Car will be here Monday. Thoughts?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

                  We are a little too swamped to attack the 8.8" IRS diff swap in the E46 this month. It might happen in April - but it has to happen. If you can be patient we might be able to supply you with the parts needed - we will post the pictures and details here.
                  Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
                  2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
                  EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

                    Originally posted by Fair! View Post
                    We are a little too swamped to attack the 8.8" IRS diff swap in the E46 this month. It might happen in April - but it has to happen. If you can be patient we might be able to supply you with the parts needed - we will post the pictures and details here.
                    Ok, I will try to baby her for now.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

                      Originally posted by PianoProdigy View Post
                      Ok, I will try to baby her for now.
                      Anything exciting to report?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

                        Project Update for April 19, 2012: Sorry for the delay - we have been busier than ever once we (quietly) started doing service and race prep work back in January. The E46 LS1 Alpha car hasn't been worked on seriously since December, but all of that is going to change now. We have a goal. The E46 was back up on a lift and attacked for the past week.

                        Let me back up a bit - remember how I said that our first prototype "Alpha" E46 LS1 will become a perfect, nice, fully functional street car? That "Option 2 or 3" car discussed in my opening post in the thread? Well... that was the original goal, but this 330Ci we have is kind of a mess. The former owner pretty much destroyed the dash, wiring harness, all of the lines and hoses, and several other key systems were either taken off or mangled badly in his quest to salvage the wiring and sub-systems for another project he had in mind. Hey, we got the car cheap for a reason. Long story short, after looking at everything closely, this chassis is just too far gone to effectively make into a nice street car. Too many parts are missing to make for a proper HVAC or fully functional gauges. Too many interior parts are trashed or gone. But... it could make a really nice race car.

                        E46 Alpha Track Rat!

                        So we've changed directions and that's where we are going with the E46 Alpha chassis - Option 1, which is sort of like how our E36 Alpha ended up back in 2006... a very capable race car that was light, fun to drive, and was a great test bed for pushing the production kit parts to their extreme limits. Hey, I know most of you want the best of both - a perfect street car and all out track terror. So do we, but the extra work it takes to make a true street worthy car adds a lot more time to the prototype project, and we've got people hounding us daily for the Stage 0 bits ... and they want them NOW. Parts we've already built in prototype form that could go into production quickly, if we could just get a running car out there putting miles on them to verify the design. So a short cut "Race car build" will get these Stage 0 parts into production a lot sooner, and get our most antsy customers the parts they need.


                        Deja vu all over again... hey, it worked the first time!

                        Like many racers we tend to work best under a deadline, so we have set an unrealistic goal of having a functioning/driving/safe E46 LS1 track car built for July's GRM Ultimate Track Car Challenge event at VIR. It won't be the final iteration of that car by then, but it could still be quick. That's like 12 weeks away, which is tight, but if we can manage to not load up our service and fab shop with too many customer cars we can do it. I have been putting our own cars on the service schedule lately, otherwise I get bumped for customer work. Dang paying customers!

                        So from now on I'll be posting up progress of the E46 LS1 Alpha Track Rat. A giant LSx motor is being built now. We ordered a radiator already and its here. We have fenders, wheels, tires, plastic window material, and other bits staged. Here's what was accomplished in the past week:

                        Prototype Headers REALLY Finished



                        Ryan cut out and reworked one of the passenger side primaries he wasn't completely happy with the first time around, and now it has more clearance at the starter. Next the collectors for both sides were located, tweaked and welded in place. As of this week the prototype headers are effectively done - yay! These will soon be removed, welded up a little more, then sent off for CMM measurement, fixture construction, a single production-test set will be made and then trial fitted to the car.



                        While the mock-up drivetrain and headers were still in place we mocked up the accessories (forgot to shoot pictures), the front end was bolted back on, and an all-aluminum Mishimoto E46 M3 radiator was installed and checked for fit (above right).



                        We have repaired and welded-in Turner E46 Subframe Reinforcement kits on two E46 M3s here in our shop during the first quarter of this year, and our guys have gotten damned good the surgery required to install these. So after looking at those two repaired M cars and our mangled 330Ci again, we've come to the realization that our 330's trunk is a total write-off. It was cracked, then the guy drove on it for at least another year and just flat ruined it. The rear subframe is completely torn out of this car on one side and the trunk is badly cracked on the other. Terminal damage at all 4 points of contact and way beyond what the Turner kit is made to repair. Instead of spending serious coin on all new BMW trunk sheet metal, burning dozens of hours reconstructing the OEM trunk, then adding the Turner kit to this car, we're going to cut out the bad bits, fabricate and weld-in some plate steel for the areas that need repair, and then tie them into a proper roll cage. Race car + cage = faster and better fix.



                        One other point of contention on this build is what to do with the cast steel rear differential housing. As you all know the E46 M3 has a 210mm ring gear Limited Slip Differential from the factory, but our 330Ci and all other non-M cars have a 188mm open differential. It is quite costly to upgrade the E46 open diff 188mm housing with a Limited Slip. The subframe/uprights/halfshafts and diff housing are different between the M3 and the non-M chassis, and unlike the E36 M3 ("where we tell folks just go buy the take-out rear subframe brake-to-brake") the E46 M3 bits demand quite a premium. Upgrading to a aftermarket differential and other gear ratios in either style BMW differential is also quite expensive.

                        So.... just like with the engine and drivetrain in this swap, we're looking at domestic sources for a lower cost and/or stronger solution. Enter the 1999-04 Ford Mustang Cobra, which had an all aluminum 8.8" (223mm) ring gear IRS differential housing. Dallas Performance put an aluminum 8.8" into Scooter's "Beta" E36 LS1, after it broke the 188 M3 diff with his 540 whp motor and his own brand of "extreme track use". That was a clean swap that looks like it will be the perfect fix for the lack of an easy 188mm LSD diff for the non-M E46 chassis.

                        The Ford 8.8" IRS is larger, stronger, lighter, and less expensive. Gears ratio choices are abundant and inexpensive ($200/set), aftermarket LSD differentials choices are abundant and inexpensive ($300-1000) and the differential can be made to fit just about any chassis (the Ford IRS diff popular swap in FD RX7 LS1s, Hot Rods, etc). Ford made a variety of rear covers/mounting styles for this 8.8" housing for use in the Cobra, Thunderbird, Mark VIII, Explorer, etc. The stronger 31 spline aluminum housing is from the 2003-04 Cobra, but you can get 28 spline cast iron units (just like BMW makes theirs from) from a decade long production of 1990s Thunderbirds and modern Explorers.

                        We have spare E46 330Ci subframes and once we tackle this first 8.8" swap we'll start making them to order.



                        Hopefully we can attack this car every single week and I will post up progress as often as I can. If the July date looks impossible I reserve the right to adjust our "deadline" accordingly.

                        More soon,
                        Last edited by Faerus; 04-19-2012, 11:34 AM.
                        Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
                        2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
                        EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

                          Sounds like a plan. Doesn't solve my need for an LSX in my DD E46 M3, but I am pleased to hear that you gave the green light to the 8.8 setup for my other E46. Let me know when I can put a deposit down!
                          Last edited by PianoProdigy; 04-19-2012, 11:56 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

                            Terry, let me know if you want to spend some time learning VIR on my iRacing rig. I raced the Grand East config last week, and that track is a beast. It took numerous laps to learn it, even without worrying about trashing a car.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

                              Originally posted by bfitz View Post
                              Terry, let me know if you want to spend some time learning VIR on my iRacing rig. I raced the Grand East config last week, and that track is a beast. It took numerous laps to learn it, even without worrying about trashing a car.
                              That would be sweet!
                              Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
                              2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
                              EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

                                Terry,

                                Shawn Murphy here. Following this thread with great interest. By the time you have the bugs worked out the 08' WRX will be just about paid off, the 2012 Autocross season will be just about done, and I'll have available whatever the stupid-high resale value for WRX'es are...

                                I had thought about an Active Autowerkes' supercharged 330i for SM, but I think I'd rather dual with Vitek B. in his Banshee. Everyone in the Spokes club seems to be building something for prepared class, and I'm getting the fevah' too.

                                The Ford 8.8 is interesting too as this project will be practice for building a Factory Five roadster at somepoint(when my son has the attention span to help) and putting together an 8.8 would be decent choice for that as well likely.

                                Good luck with it!
                                Last edited by MurphysLaww; 05-15-2012, 06:23 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X