Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build
continued from above
Left: Piles of tire shavings... Center: ...make a nice beard! Right: The SCT tool was used to check and clear CEL codes
Went out in TT session 2, our first official timed session, and it was still pretty cold at 46°F and very windy. That's a bit colder than Hoosier A6s like to work well in. Ended up starting P2 on the grid, as some folks didn't run this session due to the cold temps. Marc Sherrin's TT1 C6 Z06 Corvette was leading the field and I caught him into Rattlesnake on the first hot lap, and he let me pass after Wagon Wheel and I got around him and then ran a 1:18.8 - with the pass. Then I caught the tail end of the field (Ken Brwer in TTF, who was having some alternator issues) on the start of Lap 2, got around him and had one more lap of traffic free running. On this hot lap #3 I ended up pulling a 1:17.759, which ended up being my fastest lap of the day. The sad thing is that I put two tires WAY off track in Turn 6 (Horseshoe) on that 1:17.7 lap, so there was a lot more in it! Tires were overheating, I was pushing the SH!T out of the car, so after the 2 off I took a cool down and came in after 3 hot laps. The car was giving me AdvanceTrac faults the whole time, applying brakes in funky places without my input, GRR.
Left: The new AiM SOLO DL unit has CAN and OBD2 data reading capabilities. Right: Crazy barn fire right next to MSR
That 1:17.7 lap ended up being the fastest time of TT session 2, so I was in unfamiliar territory gridded in P1 for TT session 3. We took a lunch break after session 2 and I worked with Costas a bit on his GT-1 car (which ran in all four Super Unlimited races of the weekend and even ran in TT both days). Compared to MSR-Houston his GT-1 Camaro ran extremely reliably all weekend and it wasn't until 1:30 pm Sunday that he had to break out any tools to work on it.
After lunch it was getting colder, down to 41°F and steadily dropping, and the sun was gone so the track got colder. We had all feared rain and it was looming, but it never touched the TT run groups (Blitz group got some spinkles during one race that day, and with them all on slicks it was a slip-sliding spin fest). I ran a 1:18 best lap in 2 attempted hot laps, with a Check Engine light (cam sensor?) and AdvanceTrac faults on both laps. The harder I drove the car the more the AdvanceTrac system would fault and TURN ITSELF ON. I always -ALWAYS- leave the pits with that system completely turned off, as it badly hinders the car with it on or even "halfway on".
Sidebar : Vorshlag's Fight with Factory AdvanceTrac and ABS Systems, 2010-2014
I have talked about a few issues we've had with the factory Anti Lock Brake system and the many issues we've had with the traction/stability control system (aka: "AdvanceTrac") over the past 4 seasons, but I will touch on this again and try to summarize my thoughts on these two different systems. Some of this is a re-print from a post I made on S197forums in an attempt to answer several questions at once.
First, I think some folks reading my posts are unintentionally confusing ABS and Traction Control systems a bit. Both systems (plus stability control) are controlled in the same module on the S197 cars but they are very different systems with different levels of usefulness to racers and track drivers. Let's go over this quickly, and to the best of my knowledge. I am in no way an expert on factory ABS/TC systems other then to know when I've broken them, also known as "exceeded expected conditions". Having driven many hundreds of cars on track and in autocross situations over the past 27 years I've seen the Good, the Bad and the Ugly when it comes to factory ABS/TC (or lack thereof).
We NEVER race the Mustang with the AdvanceTrac traction /stability control system turned on, not even "halfway on". We start every autocross and track session with the "Hold the brakes, press the Traction Control button, hold for five seconds" procedure to turn AdvanceTrac ALL THE WAY OFF.
Doing track or autocross events with the stability/traction control system turned on (in either mode) will make the car SLOWER for most drivers, abuses the rear brakes, and pulls HUGE amounts of throttle to reduce torque to the wheels. If you are brand new to autocross or track driving, and it is raining or otherwise slick, then you might want to leave TS/ESC on. But for most folks in theses sports it is a huge hindrance. Even in the rain I turn TC off; I tried leaving TC on in the wet once and it was MURDERING the rear brake pads and rotors, trying to keep the car from yawing at all. Yes, even in a downpour I turn it OFF.
What has happened to us on track in the dry with the TC system turned off, many times, is that the AdvanceTrac system sometimes freaks out and TURNS ITSELF BACK ON. Then it goes bonkers applying the brakes to keep the rear tires from any amount of slip or yaw. Once it turns itself back on it cannot be turned back off without coming into the pits, shutting the engine off (there's usually a fault code displayed), restarting, and going through the whole traction control defeat sequence. Huge PITA and usually the session is ruined. We've even seen it go into the "Service Advantrac" mode, when the system is really pissed off.
It used to do this occasionally on street tires, but as we've upped the grip levels it seems to do it much more often on track. Lately it is happening on my first or second hot lap in a TT session, like what I saw last weekend in my two fastest sessions of the MSR weekend (Saturday TT session 2, Sunday TT session 2) - where I somehow still squeaked out my best laps, even in a fault mode with the brakes applied in some corners at wide open throttle. I'm so ready for that nonsense to end. We are installing the Boss 302S/R ABS/traction control module now. This new module PERMANENTLY DEFEATS all of the AdvanceTrac's stability and traction controls, which is what I want. It might not be what YOU want, and it is not meant to be installed into a street driven car.
Now the Anti Lock Brake (ABS) system is something I am actually very fond of, and it gives me confidence to fully use the brakes to their absolute limits. I don't "ABS stop" every corner, but I do push the braking pretty damned hard on this car in Time Trial use, and the ABS system keeps me from locking up a tire - which will ruin a tire very quickly (flatspot) and can reduce braking capabilities, often leading to an off track excursion. On track, the factory ABS has never failed me.
Most modern (2000+) 4-channel, factory equipped ABS systems are usually VERY GOOD and most racers love this driving aid (and tire saver!). These 4 channel ABS systems modulate the brake calipers at all four wheels independently to avoid lockup, and make adjustments in the range of "hundreds of times per second". The newer the car the faster these systems work (and the less you will feel any pulsations in the pedal, if at all). A human being has one brake pedal that can be modulated "ones of times per second", and that pedal controls all 4 brakes. So this is one of those situations where a computer can do a job better than than man.
The benefits of ABS on a street car are many, mostly the added directional control allowed while threshold braking, plus avoiding brake lockup can help slow the car down quicker than with locked tires in some conditions - both of these benefits make people crash less. In racing, a modern factory or motorsports ABS system allows a driver to wring virtually 100% of braking deceleration out of all 4 wheels at will - just mash that brake pedal HARD - and this ups driver confidence in braking considerably. ABS is a truly ideal driver aid that works very well on most modern cars, saving money (flatspots) and helping avoid offs.
The S197 Mustang's ABS system is somewhat legendary (very very good for the era and cost of the car) and in NASA American Iron racing it is penalized considerably, simply because it works so well. S197 race cars can seemingly brake later than other car's (with ABS or without) in the same class, and this might be part of the reason why this chassis has dominated the AI class for several years at the National level. Ford Racing has done S197 Mustang racers big favors by developing several low cost versions of "re-calibrated" ABS modules specially tuned to racing conditions - for high friction coefficient brake pads and higher grip racing tires. A typical Bosch motorsports ABS system costs $10,000+ including installation (and 3 or 4 times that to have it tuned by qualified engineers).... but the Ford Racing ABS modules for the S197 are around $500 and seem to just flat work.
Modern factory built Traction Control systems started to pop up a number of years ago and more recently started to include Stability Control as well. Electronic Stability Control now even a federal requirement. When combined, these TC/ESC systems generally work pretty POORLY on most late model factory built cars, at least for racing. These electronic nannies apply front and/or rear brakes and/or pulls throttle and/or timing to control wheelspin and yaw. ESC systems are designed by the OEMs to prevent crashes (and it works when people are in over their head, especially in wet or icy conditions) BUT it is also used to prevent warranty claims, too. So they kind of make cars suck more, for the most part - for racers. For "car muggles" (non-racers) ESC is another great invention to allow people to text and Facebook while driving in the rain and be a little safer.
Unlike locking tires under braking, spinning tires under acceleration is FUN and a little bit of tire slip can be faster than none at all. The same with a little bit of yaw - it can be faster in some situations. Traction/Stability control systems prevent wheelspin on the drive wheels plus try to prevent any yaw in the chassis (pivoting around the center) in hard driving/wet/ice conditions, to help avoid spins. Unfortunately they are NOT geared towards motorsports uses and when activated in racing conditions THEY SLOW DOWN good drivers, even in the wet. They might help racing on super slick surface, but most of us tend to not race in the snow and ice.
This ZR1 racing in TT1 at MSR is using the factory Traction Control system - which is one of the better ESC systems
A very few OEM TC systems are racier than most, but the factory S197 TC/SC system pretty much sucks on track, wet or dry. A bit of yaw is helpful in road course driving and especially autocross conditions, to "pivot" around tight corners. I will often go through even high speed corners with some "slip angle", as this allows for higher lateral loading. Forward acceleration on track is also better with these OEM systems turned all the way off.
Motorsports traction control systems are very different from an OEM one - these racing oriented systems are made for very different purposes, and they can work very well. Most forms of Traction Control are banned in most forms of racing, simply because it takes out a big driver element, and it ends up making the racing between the software engineers. A motorsports TC system just lets you mash the gas pedal and let the computer sort it out. This kind of sounds like the ABS, but the removal of flat spotted tires is a big cost savings and most racers agree that ABS is worthwhile, and most ABS systems are NOT banned in most forms of motorsport.
Hidden traction control systems in F1 may have led to KERS fires on the Redbull RB9
There was a big stink in F1 last year when some folks accused other F1 teams of sneaking traction control features into their KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) systems, and it was evident that one car seemed to accelerate out of corners unlike any other (Seb's RB9) and former team-owner Giancarlo Minardi had a strong case for why there was a hidden TC system on this F1 car. Some cruder/simpler cheater TC systems look for rate of change of engine RPM, and include a soft cut in the ignition to reduce engine speed acceleration and hence wheelspin. Those aren't actively monitoring wheel speed sensors but they still can be effective, and are also banned in series that don't allow TC.
So yes, we've been having TRACTION CONTROL faults from an early stage, even in 2010-11 when we were racing in SCCA's STX class on 265mm max width street tires. These AdvanceTrac issues have gotten much worse when I'm driving on track. The factory ABS system works fine on the R6 and A6 compound Hoosiers and I have not had a single ABS issue in 2 years on the sticky tires, even with the "mismatched" larger 14" rear GT500 brakes and different front to rear tire heights of the 335/30/18 and 345/35/18 Hoosiers. But... with street tires in an autocross I can sometimes make the ABS system go into what is commonly called "ice mode", but as I saw in this last weekend's Goodguys event (on 200 treadwear tires) it is usually only doing this after I allow LOTS of rear wheelspin THEN abruptly switch to heavy braking. That's a weird situation that is mostly my own fault, and again, only happens on street tires with my very abusive over-driving.
The new Ford Racing module turns off all traction control and stability control modes but also tweaks the ABS settings, supposedly setting a higher threshold for the anti-lock modulation when equipped with race tires and race brake pads. I will report back on the new settings but Rehagen Racing reports really good things about this -CA module in their Pro racing uses, so that's a very good sign.
The "M-2353-CA" module (shown above) is the Ford Racing ABS/TC unit we will be testing at USCA this weekend and at TWS at the end of this month on our Time Trial car. Yes, I realize this this -CA unit is not made for street driven cars and it will "make the dash light-up like a Christmas tree" but it already does that now with CELs and AdvanceTrac failures, ha!
This car has seen these AdvanceTrac faults with street tires, the 315/30/18 Hosiers at all four corners and is just as bad with the 335/30/18 front and 345/35/18 rear Hoosiers (which have very different tire heights). The car cannot make a single hard lap now without faulting the TC system and/or going into limp mode, so we have to take drastic measures. Even with the system turned all the way off the TC is turning itself back ON midway through my lap, and flashing all sorts of warnings on the display.
I think with the extra grip of these tires + aero we are running it is just too far outside of the factory parameters? I am not faulting Ford for this - we've taken a simple street driven Mustang farther than they'd probably intended. I also don't want to encourage people with street/track Mustangs to think they need to ditch the OEM ABS/TC modules - this Ford Racing module is an upgrade made for race cars with big, grippy race tires. If you are reading this and are not sure if you need this ABS/TC module, then I've been told that you don't. If you are racing a 2005-up Mustang with the OEM ABS/TC system in place and are seeing all sorts of faults and problems when racing, you'll know.
continued below
continued from above
Left: Piles of tire shavings... Center: ...make a nice beard! Right: The SCT tool was used to check and clear CEL codes
Went out in TT session 2, our first official timed session, and it was still pretty cold at 46°F and very windy. That's a bit colder than Hoosier A6s like to work well in. Ended up starting P2 on the grid, as some folks didn't run this session due to the cold temps. Marc Sherrin's TT1 C6 Z06 Corvette was leading the field and I caught him into Rattlesnake on the first hot lap, and he let me pass after Wagon Wheel and I got around him and then ran a 1:18.8 - with the pass. Then I caught the tail end of the field (Ken Brwer in TTF, who was having some alternator issues) on the start of Lap 2, got around him and had one more lap of traffic free running. On this hot lap #3 I ended up pulling a 1:17.759, which ended up being my fastest lap of the day. The sad thing is that I put two tires WAY off track in Turn 6 (Horseshoe) on that 1:17.7 lap, so there was a lot more in it! Tires were overheating, I was pushing the SH!T out of the car, so after the 2 off I took a cool down and came in after 3 hot laps. The car was giving me AdvanceTrac faults the whole time, applying brakes in funky places without my input, GRR.
Left: The new AiM SOLO DL unit has CAN and OBD2 data reading capabilities. Right: Crazy barn fire right next to MSR
That 1:17.7 lap ended up being the fastest time of TT session 2, so I was in unfamiliar territory gridded in P1 for TT session 3. We took a lunch break after session 2 and I worked with Costas a bit on his GT-1 car (which ran in all four Super Unlimited races of the weekend and even ran in TT both days). Compared to MSR-Houston his GT-1 Camaro ran extremely reliably all weekend and it wasn't until 1:30 pm Sunday that he had to break out any tools to work on it.
After lunch it was getting colder, down to 41°F and steadily dropping, and the sun was gone so the track got colder. We had all feared rain and it was looming, but it never touched the TT run groups (Blitz group got some spinkles during one race that day, and with them all on slicks it was a slip-sliding spin fest). I ran a 1:18 best lap in 2 attempted hot laps, with a Check Engine light (cam sensor?) and AdvanceTrac faults on both laps. The harder I drove the car the more the AdvanceTrac system would fault and TURN ITSELF ON. I always -ALWAYS- leave the pits with that system completely turned off, as it badly hinders the car with it on or even "halfway on".
Sidebar : Vorshlag's Fight with Factory AdvanceTrac and ABS Systems, 2010-2014
I have talked about a few issues we've had with the factory Anti Lock Brake system and the many issues we've had with the traction/stability control system (aka: "AdvanceTrac") over the past 4 seasons, but I will touch on this again and try to summarize my thoughts on these two different systems. Some of this is a re-print from a post I made on S197forums in an attempt to answer several questions at once.
First, I think some folks reading my posts are unintentionally confusing ABS and Traction Control systems a bit. Both systems (plus stability control) are controlled in the same module on the S197 cars but they are very different systems with different levels of usefulness to racers and track drivers. Let's go over this quickly, and to the best of my knowledge. I am in no way an expert on factory ABS/TC systems other then to know when I've broken them, also known as "exceeded expected conditions". Having driven many hundreds of cars on track and in autocross situations over the past 27 years I've seen the Good, the Bad and the Ugly when it comes to factory ABS/TC (or lack thereof).
We NEVER race the Mustang with the AdvanceTrac traction /stability control system turned on, not even "halfway on". We start every autocross and track session with the "Hold the brakes, press the Traction Control button, hold for five seconds" procedure to turn AdvanceTrac ALL THE WAY OFF.
Doing track or autocross events with the stability/traction control system turned on (in either mode) will make the car SLOWER for most drivers, abuses the rear brakes, and pulls HUGE amounts of throttle to reduce torque to the wheels. If you are brand new to autocross or track driving, and it is raining or otherwise slick, then you might want to leave TS/ESC on. But for most folks in theses sports it is a huge hindrance. Even in the rain I turn TC off; I tried leaving TC on in the wet once and it was MURDERING the rear brake pads and rotors, trying to keep the car from yawing at all. Yes, even in a downpour I turn it OFF.
What has happened to us on track in the dry with the TC system turned off, many times, is that the AdvanceTrac system sometimes freaks out and TURNS ITSELF BACK ON. Then it goes bonkers applying the brakes to keep the rear tires from any amount of slip or yaw. Once it turns itself back on it cannot be turned back off without coming into the pits, shutting the engine off (there's usually a fault code displayed), restarting, and going through the whole traction control defeat sequence. Huge PITA and usually the session is ruined. We've even seen it go into the "Service Advantrac" mode, when the system is really pissed off.
It used to do this occasionally on street tires, but as we've upped the grip levels it seems to do it much more often on track. Lately it is happening on my first or second hot lap in a TT session, like what I saw last weekend in my two fastest sessions of the MSR weekend (Saturday TT session 2, Sunday TT session 2) - where I somehow still squeaked out my best laps, even in a fault mode with the brakes applied in some corners at wide open throttle. I'm so ready for that nonsense to end. We are installing the Boss 302S/R ABS/traction control module now. This new module PERMANENTLY DEFEATS all of the AdvanceTrac's stability and traction controls, which is what I want. It might not be what YOU want, and it is not meant to be installed into a street driven car.
Now the Anti Lock Brake (ABS) system is something I am actually very fond of, and it gives me confidence to fully use the brakes to their absolute limits. I don't "ABS stop" every corner, but I do push the braking pretty damned hard on this car in Time Trial use, and the ABS system keeps me from locking up a tire - which will ruin a tire very quickly (flatspot) and can reduce braking capabilities, often leading to an off track excursion. On track, the factory ABS has never failed me.
Most modern (2000+) 4-channel, factory equipped ABS systems are usually VERY GOOD and most racers love this driving aid (and tire saver!). These 4 channel ABS systems modulate the brake calipers at all four wheels independently to avoid lockup, and make adjustments in the range of "hundreds of times per second". The newer the car the faster these systems work (and the less you will feel any pulsations in the pedal, if at all). A human being has one brake pedal that can be modulated "ones of times per second", and that pedal controls all 4 brakes. So this is one of those situations where a computer can do a job better than than man.
The benefits of ABS on a street car are many, mostly the added directional control allowed while threshold braking, plus avoiding brake lockup can help slow the car down quicker than with locked tires in some conditions - both of these benefits make people crash less. In racing, a modern factory or motorsports ABS system allows a driver to wring virtually 100% of braking deceleration out of all 4 wheels at will - just mash that brake pedal HARD - and this ups driver confidence in braking considerably. ABS is a truly ideal driver aid that works very well on most modern cars, saving money (flatspots) and helping avoid offs.
The S197 Mustang's ABS system is somewhat legendary (very very good for the era and cost of the car) and in NASA American Iron racing it is penalized considerably, simply because it works so well. S197 race cars can seemingly brake later than other car's (with ABS or without) in the same class, and this might be part of the reason why this chassis has dominated the AI class for several years at the National level. Ford Racing has done S197 Mustang racers big favors by developing several low cost versions of "re-calibrated" ABS modules specially tuned to racing conditions - for high friction coefficient brake pads and higher grip racing tires. A typical Bosch motorsports ABS system costs $10,000+ including installation (and 3 or 4 times that to have it tuned by qualified engineers).... but the Ford Racing ABS modules for the S197 are around $500 and seem to just flat work.
Modern factory built Traction Control systems started to pop up a number of years ago and more recently started to include Stability Control as well. Electronic Stability Control now even a federal requirement. When combined, these TC/ESC systems generally work pretty POORLY on most late model factory built cars, at least for racing. These electronic nannies apply front and/or rear brakes and/or pulls throttle and/or timing to control wheelspin and yaw. ESC systems are designed by the OEMs to prevent crashes (and it works when people are in over their head, especially in wet or icy conditions) BUT it is also used to prevent warranty claims, too. So they kind of make cars suck more, for the most part - for racers. For "car muggles" (non-racers) ESC is another great invention to allow people to text and Facebook while driving in the rain and be a little safer.
Unlike locking tires under braking, spinning tires under acceleration is FUN and a little bit of tire slip can be faster than none at all. The same with a little bit of yaw - it can be faster in some situations. Traction/Stability control systems prevent wheelspin on the drive wheels plus try to prevent any yaw in the chassis (pivoting around the center) in hard driving/wet/ice conditions, to help avoid spins. Unfortunately they are NOT geared towards motorsports uses and when activated in racing conditions THEY SLOW DOWN good drivers, even in the wet. They might help racing on super slick surface, but most of us tend to not race in the snow and ice.
This ZR1 racing in TT1 at MSR is using the factory Traction Control system - which is one of the better ESC systems
A very few OEM TC systems are racier than most, but the factory S197 TC/SC system pretty much sucks on track, wet or dry. A bit of yaw is helpful in road course driving and especially autocross conditions, to "pivot" around tight corners. I will often go through even high speed corners with some "slip angle", as this allows for higher lateral loading. Forward acceleration on track is also better with these OEM systems turned all the way off.
Motorsports traction control systems are very different from an OEM one - these racing oriented systems are made for very different purposes, and they can work very well. Most forms of Traction Control are banned in most forms of racing, simply because it takes out a big driver element, and it ends up making the racing between the software engineers. A motorsports TC system just lets you mash the gas pedal and let the computer sort it out. This kind of sounds like the ABS, but the removal of flat spotted tires is a big cost savings and most racers agree that ABS is worthwhile, and most ABS systems are NOT banned in most forms of motorsport.
Hidden traction control systems in F1 may have led to KERS fires on the Redbull RB9
There was a big stink in F1 last year when some folks accused other F1 teams of sneaking traction control features into their KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) systems, and it was evident that one car seemed to accelerate out of corners unlike any other (Seb's RB9) and former team-owner Giancarlo Minardi had a strong case for why there was a hidden TC system on this F1 car. Some cruder/simpler cheater TC systems look for rate of change of engine RPM, and include a soft cut in the ignition to reduce engine speed acceleration and hence wheelspin. Those aren't actively monitoring wheel speed sensors but they still can be effective, and are also banned in series that don't allow TC.
So yes, we've been having TRACTION CONTROL faults from an early stage, even in 2010-11 when we were racing in SCCA's STX class on 265mm max width street tires. These AdvanceTrac issues have gotten much worse when I'm driving on track. The factory ABS system works fine on the R6 and A6 compound Hoosiers and I have not had a single ABS issue in 2 years on the sticky tires, even with the "mismatched" larger 14" rear GT500 brakes and different front to rear tire heights of the 335/30/18 and 345/35/18 Hoosiers. But... with street tires in an autocross I can sometimes make the ABS system go into what is commonly called "ice mode", but as I saw in this last weekend's Goodguys event (on 200 treadwear tires) it is usually only doing this after I allow LOTS of rear wheelspin THEN abruptly switch to heavy braking. That's a weird situation that is mostly my own fault, and again, only happens on street tires with my very abusive over-driving.
The new Ford Racing module turns off all traction control and stability control modes but also tweaks the ABS settings, supposedly setting a higher threshold for the anti-lock modulation when equipped with race tires and race brake pads. I will report back on the new settings but Rehagen Racing reports really good things about this -CA module in their Pro racing uses, so that's a very good sign.
The "M-2353-CA" module (shown above) is the Ford Racing ABS/TC unit we will be testing at USCA this weekend and at TWS at the end of this month on our Time Trial car. Yes, I realize this this -CA unit is not made for street driven cars and it will "make the dash light-up like a Christmas tree" but it already does that now with CELs and AdvanceTrac failures, ha!
This car has seen these AdvanceTrac faults with street tires, the 315/30/18 Hosiers at all four corners and is just as bad with the 335/30/18 front and 345/35/18 rear Hoosiers (which have very different tire heights). The car cannot make a single hard lap now without faulting the TC system and/or going into limp mode, so we have to take drastic measures. Even with the system turned all the way off the TC is turning itself back ON midway through my lap, and flashing all sorts of warnings on the display.
I think with the extra grip of these tires + aero we are running it is just too far outside of the factory parameters? I am not faulting Ford for this - we've taken a simple street driven Mustang farther than they'd probably intended. I also don't want to encourage people with street/track Mustangs to think they need to ditch the OEM ABS/TC modules - this Ford Racing module is an upgrade made for race cars with big, grippy race tires. If you are reading this and are not sure if you need this ABS/TC module, then I've been told that you don't. If you are racing a 2005-up Mustang with the OEM ABS/TC system in place and are seeing all sorts of faults and problems when racing, you'll know.
continued below
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