Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build
Mustang Braking Capabilities and Improvements
Now lets take a step back for a second and move to a higher level discussion of S197 Mustang brakes. This is another area we wanted to address on our TT3 Mustang, but a little background helps further the overall S197 discussion. We've been pushing the limits of the OEM 14" Brembo front/11.8" rear disc brake set-up that comes on the '11-up Mustangs (that have the Brembo option) as well as the Boss302 and most of the GT500 Mustangs (the GT500 upgraded to 13.8" rear discs in 2013 and 15" front discs and 6-piston calipers in 2014), and wanted to see what we could do next.
Long ago we found that these brakes could be overtaxed quickly on track if left 100% stock. The basics are there (size of rotor, proper caliper) but the factory installed "consumables" weren't quite up to the task of track events. Easy upgrades like flushing out the old stuff and installing real DOT4 brake fluid (like Motul RBF600), using proper track-compound brake pads (like Carbotech), installing upgraded brake flex lines, and especially front brake cooling ducts and hoses makes a huge improvement in braking with the S197 Mustangs on track. Yes, even with the big 14" Brembos, you need to think about these upgrades if you want to push it on a road course. These are BIG, heavy cars with 420+ hp, and it doesn't take much effort to overtax even the larger Brembo brakes on track.
Track pads, proper DOT4 brake fluid, good flex lines, front brake ducting - the Braking Basics
Most HPDE drivers in S197 5.0 Mustangs, even the casual 3-4 events per year HPDE guys, will want to do this list of brake mods above before taking it out and pushing the limits. Sure, if you want to roll around at 5/10ths of the car's maximum potential, you can do it on bone stock brakes, but the fluid will be the first to go. Once it boils, the pedal goes to mush and you lose all braking power and driver confidence. Track day is over. The stock brake pads will last to about 6/10ths of full speed. Once you have track worthy pads and push to about 8/10ths, you'll need front brake ducts. Not every track newbie will find the limits of the bone stock brakes on their first track day, but many often do. You can learn this on track, and have shortened track events (or take the "green line" unexpectedly), or you can plan for this and do these somewhat modest brake upgrades up front.
Our TT3 Mustang's times are closer to the STU cars (left) than the AI record holders (right) - maybe we should step up the brakes?
We have had nothing more than this list of "HPDE worthy" Mustang brake upgrades for a while, but we've been pushing the brakes way beyond those limits. Take into account the lap times this car is turning, noted abuse to consumables, and the brake temps we've been seeing. Our lap times alone should be a big clue that we need to do a little more to the brakes than basic HPDE upgrades. So we've been comparing our TT3 times to American Iron racers, simply because they share the same power to weight ratios (9:1 to 9.5:1) and basic layout of our car (solid axle, RWD, relatively heavy). Our TT3 set-up is still 300-500 pounds heavier than most of those AI cars in our region, and we run a wider/stickier tire, but still - it is a benchmark we use, and the closest thing we have to compare lap times to other than just the TT3/TT2 cars that run with us in TT. Last year this car was running a hair quicker than the AI track records, but this year it has been more like 3-7 seconds quicker.
Consequently, the brakes are getting a lot more beat up on our car this year. A lot more. Rear pad and rotor wear has been getting steadily worse the harder Amy and I push the car. Ryan noted some very high rear brake temps at NOLA, which got me thinking about a rear brake upgrade. I will admit, our Mustang is a bit of an oddity, as it is run at a very heavy weight (our current minimum is 3770 pounds with driver), with much wider wheels than most Mustangs you see on track (12"), and with some significant downforce. I will always "drive like an autocrosser", Left Foot Braking into every corner where I have to slow down, and braking VERY late. Also, we've stuck with the OEM Brembo brakes for a long time, rather than going to a pricy aftermarket Big Brake Kit, which a lot of folk just automatically do.
But should they upgrade to an aftermarket BBK? These 14" Brembos are pretty damned beefy, up front at least. I'm not sure a "different brand" BBK would help with longer wear or more stopping power. Consumable costs can and will go up when you go to an aftermarket BBK, however. Multi-piece 14" rotors often cost $400-800 each, or more. Aftermarket calipers also can reduce your brake pad choices, unless it is also using a pad profile that some other high volume (OEM) brake systems do. This is where the Mustang Brembos shine, because even though the calipers are made in Italy, they are the OEM fitment for many thousands of factory optioned Mustangs, so replacement calipers and associated hardware can be purchased at a Ford dealer for reasonable amounts, and the brake pad profile is fairly easy to find. The front rotor costs are also low because of their high OEM production numbers, so lots of replacement brands are available (we have the Centric premium 14" front rotor listed for only $99, for instance).
Do you need to get a BBK? the OEM 14" front rotors and brake pads used in the Brembo cars are less costly
We've tested so many brands of pads and rotors on this car since we started racing it 2010, we have found what we think works best. So we reached out to these manufacturers and become a dealer for several brake component brands. Part of the reason was to reduce the consumable costs for our own cars, too. But now we have enough stuff avilable and in stock that we added a brakes page under the S197 Mustang section of our online catalog.
We've burned through all of the parts, brands and compounds on OEM-based S197 brakes, and now we offer what works
Adding brake parts seems natural to some, but I resisted it for years. See, we've always been known for aftermarket suspension manufacture, development and service work, plus a few brands of aftermarket wheels, and our BMW LS1 swaps. But now we carry several brands of brake rotors and pads, make our own brake lines for several cars, and even have our own "big brake kits" based on some OEM bits. Our Mustang brake ducting kits are about to hit, too. So, we added a new section, and it seems to have been well received.
GT500 Rear Brake Upgrade
Anyway, back to our TT3 Mustang's brakes - I've been abusing the components and the rears are wearing too fast and getting too hot. We had several options to address this. One, add rear brake ducting. That's... not a bad idea, and we will do that to reduce brake heat out back. But I wanted to add a bit more braking POWER at the same time as a larger heat sink (rotor). To accomplish this we could have gone to an aftermarket BBK option. But, I am kind of cheap at heart, and wanted to keep it OEM based to keep rotor and pad costs down. Naturally, that left one option: the '13-14 GT500 rear brakes. We have installed these and already have an upgrade kit for 2005-14 Mustangs, since we had several customers already asking us to do this work on their cars, and we sort of figured out some crucial cost savings in this rear brake upgrade.
Left: GT500 13.8" rotor and caliper installed. Right: The OEM rear discs are 11.8" in diameter and use the same caliper and brake pad
The 2014 GT500's brake components are becoming popular upgrades on the various Mustang forums. The 2014 GT500's front 15" 6-piston brakes are a bit extreme, and most of the draw is to the hard parking crowd, for the Big Brake/6-piston looks. Hey, I get it - looks cool, but very few racers have moved up from the 14" brakes to 15" brakes. Some of the Pro teams and endurance cars, sure, but not the club racers or Time Trial guys. What intrigued me more was the fact that the 2013 model GT500 got a big bump up in rear rotor size, from 11.8" up to 13.8", so we went with this upgrade first. Why? Because we were seeing problems in the rear, not the front, and this upgrade is fairly substantial for a very modest cost.
Left: GT500 13.8" rear rotor is 16 pounds. Right: The 11.8" rotor it replaces was only 12.5 pounds
We searched high and low and have rounded up the OEM GT500 13.8" rear rotors, the taller caliper brackets, and even the "GT500" calipers. The weights for these parts vs the 11.8" parts are shown here. Note where all of the added weight is - almost all of it is in the rotor. And the GT500 caliper? It is identical to the '11-up Mustang caliper, and even superceeds the 2005-2010 GT rear calipers. That is something we found after digging and testing, but Ford says this shouldn't be. They will have to revise their books, because the '11-up GT rear caliper is identical, from the casting numbers to the final machined part.
Left: The taller caliper bracket for the 13.8" brakes is 5.3 pounds. Right: The caliper bracket + support for the 11.8" brake = 4.84 pounds.
The 2" larger diameter GT500 rear rotor is almost 3.5 pounds heavier than the old 11.8" rotor it replaced, but my pic above was a very worn rear rotor (which had lost about a pound of metal), so it really only went up about 2.5 pounds. This is added metal that can absorb and shed heat, which isn't a bad thing. The taller caliper racket is almost a wash, with the GT500 version being about a half pound heavier than the shorter GT version. One thing to note is the GT's 11.8" rear caliper bracket has an axillary support bracket that clamps around the axle tube and adds some lateral support. This extra bracket doesn't exist on the GT500.
Left: The GT500 caliper is the same unit as the GT. Right: The rear dust shield for the smaller GT brakes
We went ahead and kept the "GT500" caliper we bought and used it on our 2011 Mustang, mostly because our old calipers were looking a bit worn and crusty. Ford insisted these were different calipers, but that just was not the case. We did another GT500 13.8" rear brake upgrade on a 2012 GT a week later and re-used the guy's old OEM calipers, which were identical so they fit identically. There is no dust shield for the 13.8" GT500 brakes, so the old one is removed (doesn't weigh much). The old brake lines worked on the new caliper location, too.
13.8" rotor installed with the old 11.8" rotor slide over the lugs, for scale
All told we added about 3 pounds per side on the 13.8" rear brake upgrade, compared to the brand new weights of the 11.8" disc brake parts. That's not bad for a TWO INCH upgrade in rear rotor diameter. This increase in diameter will increase rear braking torque, the added rotor mass will add more surface area and should help with rear brake cooling, and we hoped the ABS system can keep the braking balance in shape on track (it did).
The hardest part of the swap was pulling the axles out of the housing to be able to change out the caliper brackets. Not hard really, just messy. So you will need to replace the diff fluid and re-seal the diff cover if you plan on doing this rear brake swap. Since the axles have to come out it is a great time to upgrade the rear wheel studs (ARP 3" long rear S197 studs), but these technically can be done on the car (it is just more of a PITA). Also check your outer axle seals for melting/wear. Ours had been replaced earlier this year, so it all went back together and was about a 2 hour job, start to finish. We will go back and make/add rear brake ducting for this car soon, too.
Left: These larger 13.8" Rear brakes fill out the inside of the 18" wheels on our 2011 GT. Right: Same brakes on a 2012 GT with stock 19" wheels
After the new 18x12" wheels were fitted, new springs were in, front fenders were on and trimmed, the rear brakes were upgraded, axles were back in and diff fluid changed, the ride heights were finally squared away and the car re-corner balanced. Damn... this car is heavy.
We brought both R6 and A6 compounds of mounted Hoosiers to Hallett, a first for us
Another planned change for our TT3 car from all previous NASA events for 2013 was the switch from Hoosier A6 to R6 compound. The A6 tires just don't last very long on this heavy car, and we were hoping the R6 tires would be a better compound to test with. This is helpful when we go to the NASA events early and run the Friday Test-n-Tune, on tracks where we don't know the layout (driver training) or if we have had significant changes to the car since we ran here last (always!). The longer wearing R6 would help Amy and I learn this brand new (to us) track layout, but we didn't get wrapped up with the car in time to go to the Friday testing, so we had to learn the layout on race day. And then I broke the car almost immediately on Saturday... long story, tune in next time to hear more!
So the Hoosier A6 tire is terrible for track use. TERRIBLE. I wouldn't do it if this tire was penalized like the non-DOT racing slicks (it should be), but this is part of the TT Arms Race, so I keep bringing them. The A6 is very heat sensitive and after 1 hot lap on our car it has been falling off about 1 second per lap, and after 3 laps they are just a greasy mess. It has gotten to where I have to get in my best lap on my first lap, usually in the first (coolest) session, and I've stopped even scrubbing the tires at all on the warm-up/out lap. The R6 should be a lot more forgiving with regards to heat, we have nothing but hot months of racing and testing ahead, and I didn't know the next track on the schedule (Hallett) at ALL. The R6s went on the new 18x12" set and a set of worn A6s went on the older 18x11/18x12" set of wheels... but hopefully we wouldn't need them, and that set could stay in the trailer this weekend. I told my guys here that I'd only mount them if I was getting beat, heh.
Our service shop was slammed that week before Hallett. The guys handled all of this 12" wheel/fender/brake development and prep work on our 2011 GT in about a day and a half, in between customer jobs, during a super busy service week where we had too many cars scheduled. Our service workload has gotten pretty heavy of late - so much so that I've hired a third technician to help, who starts this week. We had no less than 7 Mustangs at the shop one day last week, along with the regular BMWs, Subarus, Miatas, Corvettes and four LS1 swap projects we have going on. So I've been busy looking at bigger buildings to buy to move Vorshlag into, and will update this thread and our blog after we find the right place.
Gotta stop it here. More soon,
Mustang Braking Capabilities and Improvements
Now lets take a step back for a second and move to a higher level discussion of S197 Mustang brakes. This is another area we wanted to address on our TT3 Mustang, but a little background helps further the overall S197 discussion. We've been pushing the limits of the OEM 14" Brembo front/11.8" rear disc brake set-up that comes on the '11-up Mustangs (that have the Brembo option) as well as the Boss302 and most of the GT500 Mustangs (the GT500 upgraded to 13.8" rear discs in 2013 and 15" front discs and 6-piston calipers in 2014), and wanted to see what we could do next.
Long ago we found that these brakes could be overtaxed quickly on track if left 100% stock. The basics are there (size of rotor, proper caliper) but the factory installed "consumables" weren't quite up to the task of track events. Easy upgrades like flushing out the old stuff and installing real DOT4 brake fluid (like Motul RBF600), using proper track-compound brake pads (like Carbotech), installing upgraded brake flex lines, and especially front brake cooling ducts and hoses makes a huge improvement in braking with the S197 Mustangs on track. Yes, even with the big 14" Brembos, you need to think about these upgrades if you want to push it on a road course. These are BIG, heavy cars with 420+ hp, and it doesn't take much effort to overtax even the larger Brembo brakes on track.
Track pads, proper DOT4 brake fluid, good flex lines, front brake ducting - the Braking Basics
Most HPDE drivers in S197 5.0 Mustangs, even the casual 3-4 events per year HPDE guys, will want to do this list of brake mods above before taking it out and pushing the limits. Sure, if you want to roll around at 5/10ths of the car's maximum potential, you can do it on bone stock brakes, but the fluid will be the first to go. Once it boils, the pedal goes to mush and you lose all braking power and driver confidence. Track day is over. The stock brake pads will last to about 6/10ths of full speed. Once you have track worthy pads and push to about 8/10ths, you'll need front brake ducts. Not every track newbie will find the limits of the bone stock brakes on their first track day, but many often do. You can learn this on track, and have shortened track events (or take the "green line" unexpectedly), or you can plan for this and do these somewhat modest brake upgrades up front.
Our TT3 Mustang's times are closer to the STU cars (left) than the AI record holders (right) - maybe we should step up the brakes?
We have had nothing more than this list of "HPDE worthy" Mustang brake upgrades for a while, but we've been pushing the brakes way beyond those limits. Take into account the lap times this car is turning, noted abuse to consumables, and the brake temps we've been seeing. Our lap times alone should be a big clue that we need to do a little more to the brakes than basic HPDE upgrades. So we've been comparing our TT3 times to American Iron racers, simply because they share the same power to weight ratios (9:1 to 9.5:1) and basic layout of our car (solid axle, RWD, relatively heavy). Our TT3 set-up is still 300-500 pounds heavier than most of those AI cars in our region, and we run a wider/stickier tire, but still - it is a benchmark we use, and the closest thing we have to compare lap times to other than just the TT3/TT2 cars that run with us in TT. Last year this car was running a hair quicker than the AI track records, but this year it has been more like 3-7 seconds quicker.
Consequently, the brakes are getting a lot more beat up on our car this year. A lot more. Rear pad and rotor wear has been getting steadily worse the harder Amy and I push the car. Ryan noted some very high rear brake temps at NOLA, which got me thinking about a rear brake upgrade. I will admit, our Mustang is a bit of an oddity, as it is run at a very heavy weight (our current minimum is 3770 pounds with driver), with much wider wheels than most Mustangs you see on track (12"), and with some significant downforce. I will always "drive like an autocrosser", Left Foot Braking into every corner where I have to slow down, and braking VERY late. Also, we've stuck with the OEM Brembo brakes for a long time, rather than going to a pricy aftermarket Big Brake Kit, which a lot of folk just automatically do.
But should they upgrade to an aftermarket BBK? These 14" Brembos are pretty damned beefy, up front at least. I'm not sure a "different brand" BBK would help with longer wear or more stopping power. Consumable costs can and will go up when you go to an aftermarket BBK, however. Multi-piece 14" rotors often cost $400-800 each, or more. Aftermarket calipers also can reduce your brake pad choices, unless it is also using a pad profile that some other high volume (OEM) brake systems do. This is where the Mustang Brembos shine, because even though the calipers are made in Italy, they are the OEM fitment for many thousands of factory optioned Mustangs, so replacement calipers and associated hardware can be purchased at a Ford dealer for reasonable amounts, and the brake pad profile is fairly easy to find. The front rotor costs are also low because of their high OEM production numbers, so lots of replacement brands are available (we have the Centric premium 14" front rotor listed for only $99, for instance).
Do you need to get a BBK? the OEM 14" front rotors and brake pads used in the Brembo cars are less costly
We've tested so many brands of pads and rotors on this car since we started racing it 2010, we have found what we think works best. So we reached out to these manufacturers and become a dealer for several brake component brands. Part of the reason was to reduce the consumable costs for our own cars, too. But now we have enough stuff avilable and in stock that we added a brakes page under the S197 Mustang section of our online catalog.
We've burned through all of the parts, brands and compounds on OEM-based S197 brakes, and now we offer what works
Adding brake parts seems natural to some, but I resisted it for years. See, we've always been known for aftermarket suspension manufacture, development and service work, plus a few brands of aftermarket wheels, and our BMW LS1 swaps. But now we carry several brands of brake rotors and pads, make our own brake lines for several cars, and even have our own "big brake kits" based on some OEM bits. Our Mustang brake ducting kits are about to hit, too. So, we added a new section, and it seems to have been well received.
GT500 Rear Brake Upgrade
Anyway, back to our TT3 Mustang's brakes - I've been abusing the components and the rears are wearing too fast and getting too hot. We had several options to address this. One, add rear brake ducting. That's... not a bad idea, and we will do that to reduce brake heat out back. But I wanted to add a bit more braking POWER at the same time as a larger heat sink (rotor). To accomplish this we could have gone to an aftermarket BBK option. But, I am kind of cheap at heart, and wanted to keep it OEM based to keep rotor and pad costs down. Naturally, that left one option: the '13-14 GT500 rear brakes. We have installed these and already have an upgrade kit for 2005-14 Mustangs, since we had several customers already asking us to do this work on their cars, and we sort of figured out some crucial cost savings in this rear brake upgrade.
Left: GT500 13.8" rotor and caliper installed. Right: The OEM rear discs are 11.8" in diameter and use the same caliper and brake pad
The 2014 GT500's brake components are becoming popular upgrades on the various Mustang forums. The 2014 GT500's front 15" 6-piston brakes are a bit extreme, and most of the draw is to the hard parking crowd, for the Big Brake/6-piston looks. Hey, I get it - looks cool, but very few racers have moved up from the 14" brakes to 15" brakes. Some of the Pro teams and endurance cars, sure, but not the club racers or Time Trial guys. What intrigued me more was the fact that the 2013 model GT500 got a big bump up in rear rotor size, from 11.8" up to 13.8", so we went with this upgrade first. Why? Because we were seeing problems in the rear, not the front, and this upgrade is fairly substantial for a very modest cost.
Left: GT500 13.8" rear rotor is 16 pounds. Right: The 11.8" rotor it replaces was only 12.5 pounds
We searched high and low and have rounded up the OEM GT500 13.8" rear rotors, the taller caliper brackets, and even the "GT500" calipers. The weights for these parts vs the 11.8" parts are shown here. Note where all of the added weight is - almost all of it is in the rotor. And the GT500 caliper? It is identical to the '11-up Mustang caliper, and even superceeds the 2005-2010 GT rear calipers. That is something we found after digging and testing, but Ford says this shouldn't be. They will have to revise their books, because the '11-up GT rear caliper is identical, from the casting numbers to the final machined part.
Left: The taller caliper bracket for the 13.8" brakes is 5.3 pounds. Right: The caliper bracket + support for the 11.8" brake = 4.84 pounds.
The 2" larger diameter GT500 rear rotor is almost 3.5 pounds heavier than the old 11.8" rotor it replaced, but my pic above was a very worn rear rotor (which had lost about a pound of metal), so it really only went up about 2.5 pounds. This is added metal that can absorb and shed heat, which isn't a bad thing. The taller caliper racket is almost a wash, with the GT500 version being about a half pound heavier than the shorter GT version. One thing to note is the GT's 11.8" rear caliper bracket has an axillary support bracket that clamps around the axle tube and adds some lateral support. This extra bracket doesn't exist on the GT500.
Left: The GT500 caliper is the same unit as the GT. Right: The rear dust shield for the smaller GT brakes
We went ahead and kept the "GT500" caliper we bought and used it on our 2011 Mustang, mostly because our old calipers were looking a bit worn and crusty. Ford insisted these were different calipers, but that just was not the case. We did another GT500 13.8" rear brake upgrade on a 2012 GT a week later and re-used the guy's old OEM calipers, which were identical so they fit identically. There is no dust shield for the 13.8" GT500 brakes, so the old one is removed (doesn't weigh much). The old brake lines worked on the new caliper location, too.
13.8" rotor installed with the old 11.8" rotor slide over the lugs, for scale
All told we added about 3 pounds per side on the 13.8" rear brake upgrade, compared to the brand new weights of the 11.8" disc brake parts. That's not bad for a TWO INCH upgrade in rear rotor diameter. This increase in diameter will increase rear braking torque, the added rotor mass will add more surface area and should help with rear brake cooling, and we hoped the ABS system can keep the braking balance in shape on track (it did).
The hardest part of the swap was pulling the axles out of the housing to be able to change out the caliper brackets. Not hard really, just messy. So you will need to replace the diff fluid and re-seal the diff cover if you plan on doing this rear brake swap. Since the axles have to come out it is a great time to upgrade the rear wheel studs (ARP 3" long rear S197 studs), but these technically can be done on the car (it is just more of a PITA). Also check your outer axle seals for melting/wear. Ours had been replaced earlier this year, so it all went back together and was about a 2 hour job, start to finish. We will go back and make/add rear brake ducting for this car soon, too.
Left: These larger 13.8" Rear brakes fill out the inside of the 18" wheels on our 2011 GT. Right: Same brakes on a 2012 GT with stock 19" wheels
After the new 18x12" wheels were fitted, new springs were in, front fenders were on and trimmed, the rear brakes were upgraded, axles were back in and diff fluid changed, the ride heights were finally squared away and the car re-corner balanced. Damn... this car is heavy.
We brought both R6 and A6 compounds of mounted Hoosiers to Hallett, a first for us
Another planned change for our TT3 car from all previous NASA events for 2013 was the switch from Hoosier A6 to R6 compound. The A6 tires just don't last very long on this heavy car, and we were hoping the R6 tires would be a better compound to test with. This is helpful when we go to the NASA events early and run the Friday Test-n-Tune, on tracks where we don't know the layout (driver training) or if we have had significant changes to the car since we ran here last (always!). The longer wearing R6 would help Amy and I learn this brand new (to us) track layout, but we didn't get wrapped up with the car in time to go to the Friday testing, so we had to learn the layout on race day. And then I broke the car almost immediately on Saturday... long story, tune in next time to hear more!
So the Hoosier A6 tire is terrible for track use. TERRIBLE. I wouldn't do it if this tire was penalized like the non-DOT racing slicks (it should be), but this is part of the TT Arms Race, so I keep bringing them. The A6 is very heat sensitive and after 1 hot lap on our car it has been falling off about 1 second per lap, and after 3 laps they are just a greasy mess. It has gotten to where I have to get in my best lap on my first lap, usually in the first (coolest) session, and I've stopped even scrubbing the tires at all on the warm-up/out lap. The R6 should be a lot more forgiving with regards to heat, we have nothing but hot months of racing and testing ahead, and I didn't know the next track on the schedule (Hallett) at ALL. The R6s went on the new 18x12" set and a set of worn A6s went on the older 18x11/18x12" set of wheels... but hopefully we wouldn't need them, and that set could stay in the trailer this weekend. I told my guys here that I'd only mount them if I was getting beat, heh.
Our service shop was slammed that week before Hallett. The guys handled all of this 12" wheel/fender/brake development and prep work on our 2011 GT in about a day and a half, in between customer jobs, during a super busy service week where we had too many cars scheduled. Our service workload has gotten pretty heavy of late - so much so that I've hired a third technician to help, who starts this week. We had no less than 7 Mustangs at the shop one day last week, along with the regular BMWs, Subarus, Miatas, Corvettes and four LS1 swap projects we have going on. So I've been busy looking at bigger buildings to buy to move Vorshlag into, and will update this thread and our blog after we find the right place.
Gotta stop it here. More soon,
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